[EcoBus.] MB1114. Bi-Carburation

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AlmaSana
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[EcoBus.] MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

hello family. im glad to find more people trying to make this planet a better world for everyone.
My name is Alma im from argentina and i bought a complety rottend MB312 bus with MB1114 mecanical. Motor mb352a

I fixed all the roof and the interiors and started travelling arround latin america with some friends.
we travell, taking culture, love, yoga and peace. we travel trough towns were there had never been
people from other countries visiting. We share all the tools life has teached as before.
We travel to learn about other cultures, we travel to learn to leave in peace and love.
We travel to find a place where to place our community based on communication and action.

We are starting this project to make our bus run with vegetable oil.
The specs of our motor are this ones:

Its direct injection. The injectors have 200 bars.
Pump Bosch Lineal.

For what i have read the best thing is to do a bi-tank system. We the oil gets
heatterd before getting to the pump.
Are we going to be able to run 100% vegetable oil after hitting up the motor with diesel?
Turn the valve and go on with 100% vegetable oil?

Pic: http://postimg.org/image/81ei292rf/

And to recycle the oil, what do you think about this centrifuge?
http://www.wvodesigns.com/raw-power-centrifuge.html

Love and peace
alma
http://www.facebook.com/comunidadpangea
Modifié en dernier par AlmaSana le mer. mars 24, 2021 3:41 am, modifié 2 fois.
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Dear Alma,

This forum is in french...However, some of us can cope with english! :? :? :?
And maybe spannish, but I am out of this...

You have a strong point with your inline bosch injection pump: it will handle any type of oil.
You have a weak point with your direct injection engine: direct injection engine tend to burn at lower internal temperature thus creating unburnt residue that creased the inside of the engine especially the piston rings and there goes the piston sealing.
You have to cope with this in two ways:
First of all you can only use oil when the engine surges at least 50% of the available power. Therefore no oil at iddle or going downhill.
Also you cannot burn oil with a cold engine. Wait until the engine fluids (engine oil and coolant)have reached operating temperature.
This is why you will need a two-tank system: standard fuel and oil. You start with diesel and turn on oil after a dozen miles or so.

To check wether piston seals are still effective, take a look regularly at the engine oil level. Should the level increase, you are in trouble: stop burning oil immediately.

Oil is thicker and heating it is a way to get close to diesel viscosity. Try obtaining about 50°C before entering the Bosch pump. You can use electricity, but better use the engine coolant: this is lost energy anyway.
Oil is used to make soap, it cleans the residues left by years of diesel use and the residues end up in the next filter. Keep that in mind if you happen to mix diesel and oil.
The inside of the in-line pump will get cleaned up by the oil. However, this will leads to leaks or worse:air intake. Sooner or later the pump will require changing all seals. Not expensive, but long and a bit risky, better get experience on an old in-line pump beforehand.

Waste vegetable oil does not require expensive piece of equipment like your centrifuge.
First, use a wire net to get rid of fries and leftovers.
Then an old sheet to get rid of anything not liquid.
And only after that a 5µm filter.
Let gravity do it for you. Do not apply pressure, do not heat.
To get the minimum amount of residues clogging all filters, the best proven way is to wait until residues reach the bottom of the container...Long, but dead simple!
If you have high freezing point oils, filter and use immediately, do not stock.

All this should get you a good starting point.
keep in touch
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
AlmaSana
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

joumpy a écrit :Dear Alma,

This forum is in french...However, some of us can cope with english! :? :? :?
And maybe spannish, but I am out of this...
Thank you thank you thank you.
joumpy a écrit :You have a strong point with your inline bosch injection pump: it will handle any type of oil.
You have a weak point with your direct injection engine: direct injection engine tend to burn at lower internal temperature thus creating unburnt residue that creased the inside of the engine especially the piston rings and there goes the piston sealing.
You have to cope with this in two ways:
First of all you can only use oil when the engine surges at least 50% of the available power. Therefore no oil at iddle or going downhill.
Also you cannot burn oil with a cold engine. Wait until the engine fluids (engine oil and coolant)have reached operating temperature.
This is why you will need a two-tank system: standard fuel and oil. You start with diesel and turn on oil after a dozen miles or so.
Nice to know the pump is ok.
I was going to do that, use diesel and when the engine is hot, turn it to oil.

What about not using at iddle or downhill?
What should i do when a downhill appears? brazil goes up and down many times.
and in iddle what do you do?

joumpy a écrit :To check wether piston seals are still effective, take a look regularly at the engine oil level. Should the level increase, you are in trouble: stop burning oil immediately.
Mental note, done. :)
joumpy a écrit :Oil is thicker and heating it is a way to get close to diesel viscosity. Try obtaining about 50°C before entering the Bosch pump. You can use electricity, but better use the engine coolant: this is lost energy anyway.
Oil is used to make soap, it cleans the residues left by years of diesel use and the residues end up in the next filter. Keep that in mind if you happen to mix diesel and oil.
The inside of the in-line pump will get cleaned up by the oil. However, this will leads to leaks or worse:air intake. Sooner or later the pump will require changing all seals. Not expensive, but long and a bit risky, better get experience on an old in-line pump beforehand.


I am going to use the coolant method. With a copper serpentine inside an extinguisher where the water passes by..
About the sealings, i will have a new pack of sealings next to me :)
joumpy a écrit :Waste vegetable oil does not require expensive piece of equipment like your centrifuge.
First, use a wire net to get rid of fries and leftovers.
Then an old sheet to get rid of anything not liquid.
And only after that a 5µm filter.
Let gravity do it for you. Do not apply pressure, do not heat.
To get the minimum amount of residues clogging all filters, the best proven way is to wait until residues reach the bottom of the container...Long, but dead simple!
If you have high freezing point oils, filter and use immediately, do not stock.

All this should get you a good starting point.
keep in touch
i was going to use the centrifuge because id travel a lot, and is difficult to stock oil.
better to filter and use inmediately.
i cannot wait 2 weeks for the oil to clean itself by gravity.

Look at this guys.. travelled from canada to chile using the centrifuge.
https://www.facebook.com/UpaChalupaTravelBlog/?fref=ts

Pics and data
https://upachalupa.org/2014/01/13/la-grasienta-odisea/



One more thing, what about the 200 bar injector? Its direct injection and has only one hole.
And another one, I am able to use 50% oil 50% diesel without conversion?



love and peace
thanksss
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

iddle or downhill: go back to diesel.
If you have 2 tanks and a pair of 3 way solenoïd valves, just press the button!
Take my advice, go for it: It 'll pay back quickly.

Copper serpentine works well.
However I suggest investing in a heat exchanger. It has to do with leaks and air intake...
Alternatively, you can find used heat exchangers in some diesel filters and engine oil filters

centrifuge works well, but gravity is definitively cheaper...
2 weeks in summer = no problem
2 weeks in winter = not long enough so you will clogg your 5µm filter faster and you will need more filters that's all.
Start with visual inspection, prefilter in a sheet and final filtration 5µm over a large area. Do not attempt to filter oil that's doubtful: it has to be clear brown liquid.

Injectors have a single pinhole and will need cleaning regularly with a brass brush (dremel works well) say same period as the engine oil change.
Get yourself a set of used injectors and clean them without stress, then swap at engine oil change and so on...
Dirty injectors and a cold engine will send the rev counter dancing at iddle.
Clean injectors will start the engine at the first revolution.

no conversion and 50% WVO works well but the engine will not last as long and in case of trouble, you turn into pedestrians...
with a 2 tank system, if anything fails in the oil circuitry, just press a button and keep driving with diesel.
At the beginning, a lot of things will go wrong with WVO. You will learn and feel them before they turn bad
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

joumpy a écrit :iddle or downhill: go back to diesel.
If you have 2 tanks and a pair of 3 way solenoïd valves, just press the button!
Take my advice, go for it: It 'll pay back quickly.
So if i go down a hill for 200/500 meters i should move the valve to diesel.
joumpy a écrit :Copper serpentine works well.
However I suggest investing in a heat exchanger. It has to do with leaks and air intake...
Alternatively, you can find used heat exchangers in some diesel filters and engine oil filters
Nice, ill look for a heat exchanger :)
joumpy a écrit :centrifuge works well, but gravity is definitively cheaper...
2 weeks in summer = no problem
2 weeks in winter = not long enough so you will clogg your 5µm filter faster and you will need more filters that's all.
Start with visual inspection, prefilter in a sheet and final filtration 5µm over a large area. Do not attempt to filter oil that's doubtful: it has to be clear brown liquid.
Thanks for the advice.
joumpy a écrit :Injectors have a single pinhole and will need cleaning regularly with a brass brush (dremel works well) say same period as the engine oil change.
Get yourself a set of used injectors and clean them without stress, then swap at engine oil change and so on...
Dirty injectors and a cold engine will send the rev counter dancing at iddle.
Clean injectors will start the engine at the first revolution.
Checked, used 200 bar injectors to clean them and change them when i change the oil.
joumpy a écrit :no conversion and 50% WVO works well but the engine will not last as long and in case of trouble, you turn into pedestrians...
with a 2 tank system, if anything fails in the oil circuitry, just press a button and keep driving with diesel.
At the beginning, a lot of things will go wrong with WVO. You will learn and feel them before they turn bad
Hahahaha, lets start!!
thanks a lot!
Ill keep you updated. it will take a time for me to start ding everything.
the first thing will be the 3 way and the tank.
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hello my friend you were helping me at
My ecobondi post
Do you have fb for chatting?

I am starting with the project
I dont remember if my injectors are 100 or 200 bar
Will buy 200 bar inyectors ad open the case motor and check them
Should i buy 200 bar one-pin hole or other? Mine is one pinhole

Thanks good vib
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi,
I am not the only one helping, just my english is more fluent than that of my colleagues...
Therefore my advice: keep everything on the forum.
You never know in the years to come somebody may experience the same trouble!
By the way, I am not a Mercedes owner, but we have experts on this forum: gaston 13, tibo, macroma, morris, for example.
And finally, I am an old school buddy: FB is just a ID card for me, I never chat :-)
I will post this on the forum and see what answers you get
See you
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

Thank you joumpy. thank you everyone.
we are really exited to make it work.

should I use two heat exchangers?
and I should have 3 valves to change
one for the tanks.
one for the fuel return that excedes from the injectors
and another one for the return of the pump?

should I stick to the copper fuel width? or give it more for the oil?

Could i go to 100% with the modifications?
or always use some diesel?

love and peace
changing the world.. step by step
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi,
1 heat exchanger for the oil is enough. no need to heat diesel.

You can use 3 way valves: one for the choice between oil and diesel, the other for the return of the exceeding fuel to the correct tank.
The pump will pump whatever fuel you are using.

Use larger diameter hose for the oil: it is much thicker.

You cannot quite reach 100% as you need to stop with diesel and use diesel to go downhill and iddle. But the main use can be oil. Let's say you can reach 90-95% oil overall.

As for your injectors, they are probably around 200 bars 1 pinhole. Buy some used ones of the same part number and train yourself to clean them with a brass brush.

See you soon
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

joumpy a écrit :Hi,
1 heat exchanger for the oil is enough. no need to heat diesel.

You can use 3 way valves: one for the choice between oil and diesel, the other for the return of the exceeding fuel to the correct tank.
The pump will pump whatever fuel you are using.

Use larger diameter hose for the oil: it is much thicker.

You cannot quite reach 100% as you need to stop with diesel and use diesel to go downhill and iddle. But the main use can be oil. Let's say you can reach 90-95% oil overall.

As for your injectors, they are probably around 200 bars 1 pinhole. Buy some used ones of the same part number and train yourself to clean them with a brass brush.

See you soon
Nice, so only one heat exchanger for the oil.
I have a fiber glass 350 liters tank, its ok to store the oil at the tank once is cleaned?
I ask this because of the material of the tank. And could i store the thank at the roof of the bus?
I ask this because of the uv light of the sun...

About hose.. may i use plastic hose? or should it be copper ?

When i asked about the 100% i was thinking about the oil, if it should be mixed with disel. looking at ur answer it looks its ok to use just oil
with modifications just turning back to diesel when nedded.

On wendsday i will but the pump gaskets and the injectos.

Sorry i have so many questions. As you see i follow the topic and project.

thanks a lot god bless you!
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi,

Fiberglass is OK, the sun will destroy it, but it'll take a hundred years if you paint the tank.
Should you store the tank on the roof, paint it black: this will heat it up slightly.

copper hose are expensive. plastic ones are cheap. Use fiber reinforced transparent plastic hose and change them every 3 to 5 years. They harden with oil in them.

Yes, the original tank 100% diesel, the extra tank 100% oil. On fuel swapping, a bit of oil goes into diesel tank (1) and a bit of diesel goes into oil tank (2).
Solution for (1): Let's say every year burn a full tank of "diesel polluted with oil" and fill her up 100% diesel again.
Solution for (2): never use this tank oil to ever fry potatoes! :-)

pump gaskets: new
injectors: used

God bless
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

joumpy a écrit :Hi,

Fiberglass is OK, the sun will destroy it, but it'll take a hundred years if you paint the tank.
Should you store the tank on the roof, paint it black: this will heat it up slightly.

copper hose are expensive. plastic ones are cheap. Use fiber reinforced transparent plastic hose and change them every 3 to 5 years. They harden with oil in them.

Yes, the original tank 100% diesel, the extra tank 100% oil. On fuel swapping, a bit of oil goes into diesel tank (1) and a bit of diesel goes into oil tank (2).
Solution for (1): Let's say every year burn a full tank of "diesel polluted with oil" and fill her up 100% diesel again.
Solution for (2): never use this tank oil to ever fry potatoes! :-)

pump gaskets: new
injectors: used

God bless
So i will put the fiberglass tank on top of the bus.
Will use fiber reinforced hose
Used injectros
New gaskets..

About the valves, why do you use solenoid? So the valve is really near from the pump when is time to push the button, and so will quicly change from oil to diesel?
I ask this because i was planning to use manual valved and realice that..

Image

Hose width?
The heat exchanger goes before the valve isnt it?

Amen and love
thanks!
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi Alma,
valves need to be close to the injection pump.
With manual valves, you open the hodd twice every trip minimum.
With solenoid, just press a button.
Both work well: up to you!
hose internal diameter 10 mm.TRANSPARENT!
heat exchanger as close to the valve as possible.
Be my guest
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

thank you thank you thank you thank you.
about the diesel filter.. if im running on oil and press de button. it will change to diesel but the diesel filters that pass before the pump it will be full of oil still... what abou that? because there is like half a liter inside the filtera isnt it?

love and peace
tomorrow starts the project itself :)
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi Alma,
You really need 2 filters: one for diesel and one for oil.
For diesel you can use a simple one: just a filter. I suggest a used one: you check it for leaks and change the filtering element. It will be in function very rarely.
For oil you can use the original fuel filter, especially if it includes a heating system using coolant; you may need to modify the temperature at which it operates, thus 2 functions in one element: filtering and heat exchanger. If a pump is included on the top of the filter, you need to change the membrane, this is tricky, be gentle. A filtering element of high surface area is preferred as oil is not quite as fluid as diesel...
Then only filtered fuel goes through valves
God bless
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

Hello Family!

Nice, so 2 filters. the one in my MB352 motor has not heating system..
Is this one
Image

Sorry for being late.. i am travelling arround South America and
sometimes i dont use much internet.
Id been trying to find the heat exchanger here in Brasil, used ones
where junked cars are lot, and couldnt find. Diesel cars are really rear
here. Only Trucks

What do you say.. should i build one? do you have any drawings to build one?
Id seen one built with fire extinguisher..

or is should buy one? a friend of mine is in the us.. i could tell him to bring me one
do you know where i could buy it only?

Thanks! loveee
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

Hi Alma,
Sometimes, the heat exchanger is not on the diesel circuit, but on the engine oil circuit: it is used to cool the engine oil down. Then it is close to the oil filtering element. Have a look this way.
If it is not possible to find such a heat exchanger, do not bother with new ones, build your own.
2 copper tubes Ø10 mm minimum internal 1 m long.
Wrap them with copper wire, heat up and use lead/tin solder.
1 tube for cooling fluid, the other for oil, flows in opposite direction.
Insulation around the assembly and you are good to go.
God bless
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

wrap both copper tubes with cooper wire?
Do i need to twist both tubes together?
heat up and solder to paste them together?

Wha about this one:
http://www.wvodesigns.com/fphe.html

god bless!
each day more near :)
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par joumpy »

no need to twist the copper tubes. Copper wire and solder paste will be enough.
This will be cheap and easy.
10/12 mm diameter copper tubes connect well to fuel lines Ø10 mm inside
16/18 copper tubes connect well to coolant hose Ø16 mm inside.
plate heat exchanger work well also but clog after sometime and are difficult to clean. Plus you need bother about threads to connect them!
Le plaisir n'est rien si par la même occasion il n'emmerde pas quelqu'un d'autre :o
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Re: [HELP-NEW] EcoBus. MB1114. Bi-Carburation

Message par AlmaSana »

I love you!

So ill buy 10/12 copper tube for oil.
And 16/18 for coolant, is that ok?

wire both and solder paste... solder all meter?


did i tell you? i love youuuu
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